"Gold Medal or No Medal"

00:00:06: Servus and welcome to the Spira podcast on The Dimensions of Breathing.

00:00:11: My name is Alexander Jonas, this episode will be released in both German and English.

00:00:20: And there's a special reason for it!

00:00:23: My guest today is American sports and breathing scientist Eric Harbaugh.

00:00:30: I visited Eric at his workplace, the Austrian University Sports and Olympic Training Center in Salzburg-Rief.

00:00:49: Hello Eric!

00:00:50: Thanks for taking that time from Spira today.

00:00:54: Eric Hauber is a sports scientist... Let us know the path you took from being a student in Michigan to becoming a sports scientist who has been now working here at Salzburg for several years.

00:01:08: Yeah, so as is often the case that dots only connect looking backwards.

00:01:15: I was an athlete.

00:01:16: i was always a runner and a cyclist just fun recreational.

00:01:21: I was a ski racer for some years, competitive alpine racer at the university level.

00:01:28: And then from my bachelor's i studied what is called in US athletic training so like sports physio or sport medicine and had the luxury of working with a lot top university athletes about three thousand hours for what I do now.

00:01:52: I worked in ski racing for about five years, doing mainly the sports medicine as well strength conditioning but then realized if i wanted to Do anything meaningful and sports that I needed some further education And so I ended up doing a masters in New Zealand Mainly in Sports Tech and Data Analysis.

00:02:10: Then there is where I met my current boss who was speaking at a conference.

00:02:15: He pulled me into a PhD program here in Salzburg And so I've completed this PhD about three years ago, and it was an industry public-private project together with Adidas Atomic Red Bull.

00:02:29: We were mainly looking at wearable sensors in trying to sort of understand the feeling of exercise.

00:02:35: This is where... Together with some my collaborators and supervisors we had the idea to look a breathing as unique kind of phenomenon that blends psychological, the physiological and the biomechanics of exercise especially running.

00:02:53: And so through that work in the last seven years from PhD now to postdoc I've been looking at mainly these kind of two categories that i like to call measurement just understanding breathing diagnosis.

00:03:07: when is breathing a problem?

00:03:09: what?

00:03:09: how can we measure it?

00:03:11: Especially with wearables Can we change breathing?

00:03:17: Why should be changed breathing, sort of how and when.

00:03:20: And that's still kind.

00:03:22: the direction I'm working on now

00:03:24: Sounds interesting.

00:03:26: I think so.

00:03:28: can you explain to us The meaning for breathing behavior and breathing patterns?

00:03:37: Sure One strange problem in our field is there are a lot mixing of terminology with respiration and ventilation, together with breathing.

00:03:50: And for me, respiration is specifically describing gas exchange of oxygen and CO-II either at the level of the lung or the cells.

00:04:00: Ventilation is simply sort of movement air in an out where breathing is a behavior right?

00:04:08: Breathing has lots different inputs.

00:04:10: one those as respiration.

00:04:11: it's a behaviour.

00:04:14: Responsibilities is to accomplish adequate respiration, but it has a lot of other responsibilities.

00:04:20: Breathing enables me talk and swallowing in the coordination of different very human behaviors.

00:04:26: so breathing is this really interesting flexible behavior that allows respiration And with all these different inputs since we know it responds so much to stress physical exercise emotions etc.

00:04:43: There's a lot that we can learn from it in this regard.

00:04:46: And, It has a lot of unique kind of aspects to it during exercise That aren't necessarily the case during rest and thats been guiding light.

00:04:57: let say In this field

00:04:59: Let start with some breathing myths You meet in your work.

00:05:05: Sure Yeah there is definitely Now with breathing so much in the zeitgeist theres lots books podcasts, other things talking about breathing.

00:05:18: And I'm very aware of the degree of misinformation that often doesn't meet some of the expectations.

00:05:26: One thing i start with because like to think in a problem-solving kind way is there's this myth has gone on in scientific world for quite long time that breathing isn't really problems sport.

00:05:42: But now we have a lot of evidence that indeed in elite athletes or in masters' athletes, older individuals and also younger athletes like adolescents.

00:05:53: And as well a lot other clinical conditions the lungs or breathing muscles can be an important myth to try to dispel.

00:06:04: because if you want to talk about breathing techniques or using breathing to sort of improve sports performance, or even the feeling of sport.

00:06:16: I think it's a useful place to start and say okay when are how is breathing actually a problem?

00:06:22: And this one that we see in the scientific world still carries alot momentum.

00:06:28: so thats just one.

00:06:30: Other ones?

00:06:31: Yeah lots of other ones!

00:06:33: So once again been in Zeitgeist is nose-breathing.

00:06:39: I remember being told by a senior sports scientist in the New Zealand Olympic system that nose breathing doesn't matter.

00:06:49: That we shouldn't try to change it, that mouth breathing is preferred and maybe even superior... And generally we should just let people breathe how they need.

00:07:01: On the flip side there's been a lot of prominent voices Even scientists who now talking about nose breathing claim that it's a Panacea, That is a universal fix for lots of problems.

00:07:16: People saying its going to fix all your problem and prevent asthma or one the most pervasive myths helps to pace exercise right?

00:07:26: The idea if you're breathing through nose thats gonna prevent from over exerting.

00:07:32: It will help keep in zone two very easy intensity.

00:07:41: There's now a couple studies on this that have shown actually, but that's not the case.

00:07:45: Nose breathing doesn't help always to pace exercise because of an interesting feature it was... This is my interpretation That is The nose adapts.

00:07:57: It adapts to exercise.

00:07:58: when we try to use the nose We get better at using than those Because there's plastic changes the structural changes within the nose And there's functional changes.

00:08:08: We get better at, for example, dilating the nose and opening it by contracting these muscles around... ...and we get more used to perhaps the different changes in CO₂ concentration of blood.

00:08:19: So over time if you're using a nose to try to stay on an easy pace whether its running or cycling that threshold where we can hold onto our nose actually goes up!

00:08:30: It doesn't necessarily help pace because it's an advantage and a disadvantage that is we get better at the nose breathing over time.

00:08:39: It has a number of other advantages that I do support, and i generally classify them as like air conditioning right?

00:08:48: It filters the air from pollution bacteria and viruses.

00:08:51: if humidifies the air it regulates the temperature And these things are really valuable, especially in cold or dry or polluted environments.

00:09:00: So I do think that there's value to nose breathing but it doesn't necessarily match some of the myths and misinformation around it.

00:09:08: so thats just one big one.

00:09:10: um...and i think maybe a conclusion is definitely deserves more study as well as other myths than what you mentioned.

00:09:18: Like most cases truth will be between

00:09:22: somewhere Exactly Exactly.

00:09:24: We should always be cautious of people over-promising any sort solutions regarding breathing.

00:09:32: that it's going to fix all your problems or boost your VO two max by thirty percent.

00:09:37: That sounds great, but a lot is marketing.

00:09:42: On the other hand.

00:09:43: I also do believe its effective and It doesn't matter.

00:09:48: We should just let breathing happen, not try to change it.

00:09:51: I think that's not the case either because we see problems in so many individuals.

00:09:57: And So if i can go on there is one more myth.

00:10:01: One more myth thats at top of my head which surrounding respiratory muscle training.

00:10:06: Maybe you've seen devices or masks people wear Which deliberately limit air flow Either on inhale and exhale.

00:10:16: there were some invented, I think the end of the eighties early nineties and they showed some promise at the beginning for COPD an asthma.

00:10:25: And then I think some of the marketing in the two thousands around simulating altitude training soured a lot of people because a lot scientists said wait this is nothing like altitude training.

00:10:38: The mechanisms are different that outcomes or different?

00:10:44: And mixing those things, I think created this myth that respiratory muscle training doesn't work.

00:10:53: There's still a lot of suspicion among scientists and clinicians if it works or how it works.

00:11:01: but now decades later actually we have some good evidence on why it works AND the key outcomes.

00:11:08: so... We know that changes in way that the respiratory muscles fatigue It changes the blood flow redistribution during exercise, and that outcomes are real.

00:11:18: That it has a benefit for both endurance exercise and like more repeated sprints anaerobic exercise.

00:11:26: And so this is one that...it IS valuable!

00:11:28: Like..It does appear to boost performance maybe two-to three percent Which really matters for some people.

00:11:34: High performance?That could be difference between gold metal or no metal.

00:11:39: Also for clinical population....that can make different where they walk up two flights of stairs or not.

00:11:47: But it's also the promises that some people have made regarding improving VO-II max by twenty percent, That is not realistic so as again The truth somewhere in between but It does work a little bit.

00:12:02: On one hand there are myths and on other hand There are breathing techniques which improve strength and performance.

00:12:11: Can you tell us some secrets?

00:12:13: Sure First, there's no secrets.

00:12:15: I think that a lot of information and knowledge out there... ...and anyone claiming they have the secret or some knowledge doesn't exist in other places.

00:12:27: we should be suspicious about them too.

00:12:30: We've written some papers on this And i'm happy to share link maybe later In the notes And we've summarized what works and why it works especially during running The.

00:12:45: I would say the top two things that work.

00:12:47: That we know.

00:12:49: One of them is respiratory muscle training and this can be rather effective in a lot of different contexts.

00:12:55: another one is Let's see if we think about just breathwork, what are their breathing exercises?

00:13:01: Can be done at rest to improve sports?

00:13:05: Is slow-paced breathing?

00:13:08: so amongst again back to the myths theme If you think about all the different types of breath work that are out there, lots of which is being promoted by various people.

00:13:20: There's only one thing I believe really truly evidence-based.

00:13:24: we know why it works and the outcomes.

00:13:26: this slow pace breathing comes under different names of coherent breathing or more technical would be like resonant frequency breathing or heart rate variability biofeedback.

00:13:37: We know why this works because breathing has a strong influence on Heart Rate Variability And we know the outcomes that it affects executive function.

00:13:47: It effects decision making and cognitive focus, basically what is breathing?

00:13:54: usually at about five to six breaths per minute?

00:13:57: When you combine this with a heart rate sensor or PPG sensor We can get guided slow-paced breathing individualized to really maximize the benefit.

00:14:07: This could be very effective.

00:14:08: so just five minutes Ideally up to maybe fifteen minutes per day for several weeks can be really, really helpful For people to improve some of those things I just said but also recovery And so the slow-paced breathing and respiratory muscle training both done at rest Can be really really helpful.

00:14:28: Some of the other ones that we've looked At.

00:14:31: That could Be useful during sport are Also interesting.

00:14:34: So there's probably a value To slower deeper Which i usually described as diaphragm breathing during exercise.

00:14:44: There's value to that by itself, I'm not sure we can think of.

00:14:48: it is a technique necessarily but thats like in principle better breathing.

00:14:54: and then there also probably values specific exhale techniques which i would call the active exhale locomotor respiratory coupling or synchronizing your breathing with movement.

00:15:07: Then might even be some role breath holding as an apnea training, a stand-alone technique.

00:15:13: Of course people in swimming or diving know all about this and it's just starting to make its way into other domains like cycling running fighting some of that stuff.

00:15:24: so All those are quite interesting.

00:15:26: they have their own studies and mechanisms.

00:15:29: but I think in the vision breathing techniques strategies for sport and our conclusion is that, yeah we can do something to improve breathing during sport.

00:15:44: Up to a certain level there are some basics for amateur sport or professional sports, for recreational sport but at some point it will split.

00:16:01: So... There's lot to say.

00:16:03: I mean first if you go back the topic of breathing problems It's interesting and surprising for a lot of people to learn.

00:16:12: Elite athletes typically have more breathing problems than subelites, the recreational athlete me-and you going out for run experiences fewer or lower prevalence of breathing problems then the elite athlete.

00:16:27: we can almost think it like workplace injury.

00:16:30: The sheer quantity amount heavy breathing that they're doing causes problems in the airway especially.

00:16:39: And also, in some sports or disciplines dealing with the complex equipment that they have to wear... ...or the strange postures that you use?

00:16:49: Also temperatures!

00:16:51: Winter sport and summer

00:16:52: sport is important for sure.

00:16:53: so winter sports cold dry air can cause a lot of problem specially if we do heavy breathing also aquatic sports, because the chlorine in air inside of a pool can cause problems when we breathe that all the time.

00:17:09: This has shown itself as an exercise-induced bronchoconstriction or what's called in the Dacpedastungsasma.

00:17:18: so you see those populations have higher prevalence on that and already they're breathing is different.

00:17:25: maybe need to think about not only the problems, but also what solutions are best for those people.

00:17:36: That helps to inform perhaps what solution is relevant.

00:17:39: so... For example The cold dry air aspect.

00:17:44: that would especially affect a cross country skiing athlete Lang Laufen.

00:17:51: This isn't necessarily an issue of the people who just sometimes or never going out in the cold.

00:17:58: And so for those people, we might see a benefit of... For example.

00:18:02: A heat and moisture exchange mask which we can think of as the type of breathing intervention.

00:18:07: They make special masks that have no resistance.

00:18:10: It's not respiratory muscle training But it helps to keep some humidity in an airway And help protect from over drying during long session In cold dry air.

00:18:21: This could be really interesting.

00:18:24: Furthermore, something that might be interesting for the elite athletes.

00:18:27: I mentioned the apnea training.

00:18:30: Divers have done this for a long time doing like static or wet apneas Like either sitting or putting their face into water and holding the breath for as long as they can.

00:18:41: In swimming.

00:18:42: it's been one known like hypoventilation Training of Holding your breath Swimming a full length in pool Or maybe two And then Going back to normal breathing.

00:18:53: This is a really sharp training stimulus that we now understand better, like why it works how it works what outcomes are associated.

00:19:02: this could be really relevant for elite athletes because that breath holding Is necessary For somebody who of course in the water.

00:19:11: but We can also exploit It In dry land sports Like running cycling judo and there's been some studies on That.

00:19:20: But this is something that when a non-elite athlete asks me, oh should we be doing breath holding?

00:19:26: Is apnea training interesting for me.

00:19:29: I typically say no just because We have some anecdotal evidence.

00:19:34: uh i've talked to some senior researchers Doing work with free divers with swimmers That after many months or years of doing this apnea Training we have some evidence that it might disturb the resting breathing pattern.

00:19:47: So you see higher prevalence of sleep apnea some other problems in these people.

00:19:51: And so that maybe we're actually disturbing, sort of automatic control breathing when you do this really extreme breathing techniques with elite athletes.

00:20:01: So as is the case.

00:20:02: I think it fits the theme like well what the elite athlete are doing isn't necessarily what they rest should be paying attention to because whats best for performance sometimes its opposite to what's best for wellness.

00:20:17: Like I said, the heavy amount of breathing that they're doing... ...that they need to do in sport can actually be harmful to the airway.

00:20:24: So we should treat the person who wants to compete or want to participate in sports for wellness and longevity.

00:20:33: They need different things than a person wanting gold medal

00:20:39: For high-performance athletes.

00:20:41: it's often another result of wrong breathing.

00:20:47: the problems afterwards is that's part of the game to be a top athlete.

00:20:53: Exactly, exactly especially with these airway problems.

00:20:57: but sometimes it can interact with wrong breathing.

00:21:01: I'm a little bit cautious to use that wording because i think there is no wrong breathing except for the breathing that really doesn't accomplish respiration right.

00:21:11: so we could say sleep apnea is wrong health concerns, like congestive heart failure.

00:21:20: It's linked to serious problems.

00:21:22: but we know that there is better breathing and this is known by the field of dysfunctional breathing or what's often called breathing pattern disorders.

00:21:32: so it's not its own diagnosis...it's not a disease!

00:21:37: But breathing pattern disorder is a collection of symptoms and either reflect or worsen some of these other breathing problems.

00:21:47: So for example, that Belastung's Asthma the bronchoconstriction sometimes we see in upper airways.

00:21:56: this can also coexist with thoracoabdominal asynchrony.

00:22:01: so moving compartments... We want different breathing compartments to move together.

00:22:09: but sometime preterm infants in people with asthma and also sometimes perfectly fit elite athletes, we see an asynchronic here.

00:22:21: And this can be indicative of a problem.

00:22:24: Sometimes that presents with different stressors or like panic associated with the with an asthma attack.

00:22:31: but it could also be a precursor to those things.

00:22:33: It can contribute to these problems because when those compartments don't move together then our breathing muscles have to work harder to produce the same airflow.

00:22:42: So we should see this as maybe a yellow flag that tells us, hey something is off with the breathing!

00:22:48: It's not wrong but it's also not right.

00:22:52: so there is a big gray area there.

00:22:55: I think every scientist clinicians and practitioners should be aware of because they can be a clue.

00:23:09: You're listening to a Spira podcast featuring sports and breathing scientist Eric Harbour.

00:23:15: Recorded for Spira, the breathing website.

00:23:19: In the second part of this podcast episode I speak with Eric about breathing for recovery as well as his current research and work.

00:23:42: That breath work or breathing technique done at rest can have a lot of benefits for recovery in an athletic population.

00:23:52: So there's indeed some studies on specific interventions that might support recovery, but again if I think in more problem-oriented style one of the problems maybe that exists is like autonomic nervous system dysregulation.

00:24:14: The sheer quantity of heavy training that they're doing is known to cause acute or chronic energy deficiency, it can cause sleep disturbances and especially when we add in environmental stressors like hypoxia if their competing at altitude.

00:24:31: These people contribute to decreased performance or shorter career, or increased risk for airway problems.

00:24:46: And so unfortunately right now we don't know a lot about what recovery breathing looks like.

00:24:52: I haven't seen almost any studies on.

00:24:55: just look at what does someone's breathing pattern look in the one-or two hours after intense training and competition?

00:25:02: not alot is known.

00:25:05: And because that's missing, we also don't know a lot about what can actually do for those problems they might have.

00:25:14: But if I put on my practitioner hat you know... What can we suspect or what can we hypothesize?

00:25:21: I'm guessing there is a valuable critical window in the time to perhaps address some of airway problems and dysfunctional breathing characteristics.

00:25:34: So for example, somebody in a cold dry environment might benefit from having a humidifier in their room after heavy training session to help rehydrate the airways.

00:25:44: To prevent some of the developing airway hyper responsiveness or somebody with any coordination problems.

00:25:53: like I mentioned thoracic dominance.

00:25:57: it might help them to have a little bit of static breathing exercises, you know done at rest or maybe with the hands on with a physio or coacher trainer afterwards.

00:26:08: To try and reestablish some better breathing habits.

00:26:11: And there's also like good learning window that we can start to automate those healthier patterns.

00:26:20: so although we don't really got evidence yet I speculate what might be some problems and what might be good solutions.

00:26:28: When you're working with athletes, your'e working their habits the breathing habit And we know from our life it's always difficult to change habits In every case.

00:26:42: So is also a coaching problem?

00:26:47: Yes in part.

00:26:50: so I have alot of thoughts on this.

00:26:55: Indeed, breathing is a highly automated complex process with a lot of different inputs and neurological circuits.

00:27:05: And yeah it's both a feature in the bug that its so responsive to different things.

00:27:14: So any attempts at change are likely to disrupt That tight regulation.

00:27:24: Instructing somebody to change the breathing just in an acute setting can be problematic.

00:27:30: In part, because paying attention to your breathing when I say that word already changes it right?

00:27:35: We said this is sitting here and you're more likely maybe sit up straight use more diaphragm Maybe slow down Just what i mentioned That word.

00:27:46: And we've seen as well changing the breathing acutely if breathe more diaphragm or slowing it down, or synchronizing with movement.

00:27:55: This is likely to make it less economical.

00:27:59: you're likely to over-breathe Or maybe under-breath when I tell you to change it acutely.

00:28:07: and also to your point...I actually have seen that It's not so easy To convince people That its worthwhile in a short term setting because they feel this Its hard to change or it feels that its disrupting something, that was automatic and its distracting.

00:28:25: So not everybody feels in a single session what we're doing is helping And so there's certain buy-in with athletes who are patient sometimes compared to other clinical interventions.

00:28:44: There might be more education.

00:28:47: You know information needed to.

00:28:52: that's

00:28:52: what I meant with the coaching problem.

00:28:54: at first you have to make maybe one step back To make two forwards.

00:28:59: Yes, right?

00:29:00: Right or unfortunately to get to stimulate The problem right.

00:29:06: i think it's only really apparent to people That there is a problem and then a solution Is needed when they feel the symptoms.

00:29:14: so whether It's breathlessness atom loss Or specific clinical symptoms like coughing or noisy breathing, something like stridor which is an inhale sound.

00:29:28: When we see you feel these things... These can elicit really strong visceral reactions in people and then it could be helpful to say hey!

00:29:36: See how bad that felt?

00:29:38: Now I'll show this solution And thats a good way to introduce the topic.

00:29:42: sometimes coach that, let's say.

00:29:47: One big problem we have is because it's this highly automated process and breathing during exercise so different than at rest.

00:29:58: whatever you can do at rest I believe has limited transfer to exercise.

00:30:04: We could try some of these interventions but i'm not confident its going.

00:30:09: change your breathing because exercise, the change in CO two and central effort.

00:30:15: And all these other things.

00:30:17: there's such a strong input to breathing that it's not easy just do-the-nose breathing during exercise as is doing rest.

00:30:26: so I think theres limited value.

00:30:30: what transfer of breathing exercises at rest or exercise?

00:30:34: So my conclusion we need more during exercise.

00:30:37: try changing breathing but then if were doing We need to have a long view of the room.

00:30:44: we need to think about how do we habituate it and make it automatic so that?

00:30:49: We take this unconscious process Make It conscious with The ultimate goal Of making it unconscious again.

00:30:57: And, we Need I Think some technology To Do That.

00:31:00: So.

00:31:00: You need to be able to give people Some kind of feedback whether its visual Feedback Maybe other breathing or audio feedback something to follow so they can still do their sport Or Activity and also we nudge them to slowly change the breathing toward a more, dare I say optimal pattern.

00:31:19: And that's as i described you kind of half of my work.

00:31:23: there are lot other people in groups working on this all over the world but it is nuanced difficult topic approach because its not quick solution.

00:31:33: so many us in the twenty first century want yeah thats big field.

00:31:40: That's how it needs to be if we're gonna try and make a long-term positive change in breathing during exercise.

00:31:46: And then, how important is the collaboration with other specialists?

00:31:52: Yeah really... Really important!

00:31:57: So I work with specialists across the range everywhere from sports pulmonologists To sport specific coaches Physios technologists, you know whether it's the sports scientist or analyst and I think there are a number of different reasons why.

00:32:18: To start if we think back to that kind problem oriented approach It is important any sort support staff for an athlete or patient Are aware possible problems And can acknowledge somebody has a problem That needs be addressed.

00:32:36: So, a good example is what's called ILO.

00:32:39: Exercise-induced laryngeal obstruction or it would sometimes call vocal cord dysfunction, vows de dé in the doc.

00:32:48: This is real problem that occurs in the upper airway and at The level of the larynx is distinct and totally different than at Blastung's Asthma right?

00:32:59: Asthma has more here in the Upper Airways Or at the upper end of the lung whereas The ILO occurs here, and it's an inhale sound.

00:33:07: It is a different clinical presentation And unfortunately Although its common probably five to ten percent of athletes have it only about twenty-five percent Of coaches are aware of his existence.

00:33:20: So it's to me a tragedy that these athletes who have this?

00:33:24: And it's really serious limitation They feel like they can't breathe when their reaching maximal intensity.

00:33:30: Their often undiagnosed or misdiagnosed right?

00:33:34: They're told either you have no problems, keep going or you have asthma.

00:33:38: Here's an inhaler but the inhaler doesn't help them and so the first kind of line-of-defense that we need is just in awareness of a problem Right!

00:33:47: So I'm working with some doctors Some coaches Trainers Just to know hey here's what this looks like Here's What This Sounds Like.

00:33:55: If You Think This Is The Problem Make Sure To Send Them To The Right Person Because they Need A Proper Diagnosis so that we can actually give them the right solution.

00:34:05: That's an important collaboration.

00:34:06: first, is just knowing when and how to triage the right problems.

00:34:13: A second one is thinking about what solutions are available?

00:34:17: And who kind of deliver them.

00:34:19: So I've already told you a little bit about some my preferred interventions whether it's slow-paced breathing or respiratory muscle training locomotor respiratory coupling, which is an interesting other topic.

00:34:34: Some of this stuff is perfectly achievable and executable by the athlete themselves.

00:34:40: so slow-paced breathing for example.

00:34:42: there's now some really good smartphone apps even some free ones that can integrate with a heart rate sensor.

00:34:47: it could be almost entirely self led in.

00:34:50: So In This Sense It's Good to Just Have Build A Relationship With The Athlete That They Can Go And Do This Themselves And Benefit From All Those those benefits that I described.

00:35:01: Other things like respiratory muscle training, for example they do i think require some supervision at least the beginning.

00:35:09: so from maybe one or two visits in you know may be one hour each.

00:35:13: um we have evidence that supervision and specifically trying to guide diaphragm-led breathing can be more effective at actually exploiting the benefits of that intervention.

00:35:27: But it's better with some supervision.

00:35:28: And that's ideally done by, I'd say a respiratory physiotherapist but could also be done by strength and conditioning.

00:35:36: coach an athletic trainer or somebody else who has the knowledge of anatomy can supervise process little bit.

00:35:45: There is kind of fields like fatigue in load monitoring and biofeedback.

00:35:53: So, there's a new topic in breathing that is using breathing frequency or ventilation as a fatigue-or load monitoring metric.

00:36:04: And this could be really interesting to interface with the sport scientists and physiologists.

00:36:10: at some places I've worked scientifically on this topic of using it for progression during long duration exercise.

00:36:21: So in this sense, it can be really valuable to interface with those people.

00:36:25: And then on the biofeedback side we've been using breathing as a metric for biofeed back for a long time in sports psychology and In this sense I should acknowledge i'm really grateful To have some formal collaboration supervision With the sport psychology team here.

00:36:44: You met one of my supervisors earlier so It's been Really great to learn from them What is valuable or what we should pay attention to on the psychological side when were doing any kind of breathing intervention because they have a lot experience there and also people with serious mental illnesses in psychological disorders.

00:37:04: And so that, There's also some value value in sport their to maybe hey if you're gonna do any kinda biofeedback here We should think about interfacing with that sports psychologist to know Hey!

00:37:15: What conditions does this person already Maybe?

00:37:18: what principles should we pay attention to, any individual kind of considerations for this intervention?

00:37:24: Because breathing can be a quite powerful intervention.

00:37:29: So that's how I would think about the... How and when to interface with different collaborators.

00:37:35: Let us end our talk with your current project you are running.

00:37:43: Can you tell me something about it about your studies, about science and projects.

00:37:50: Sure!

00:37:53: Let's see... On the monitoring side I have a few going on One we've been looking at breathing during intermittent exercise or interval training And how breathing parameters react to changes in work and rest contrast.

00:38:11: This is interesting because you can see that perhaps more reactive than the traditional metrics of like heart rate monitoring.

00:38:20: Similarly, we're looking at some of that in the field of breathing monitoring with wearables during a half marathon study and then also doing along duration trail run And this is interesting as you see how those metrics evolve to demonstrate what can do with wearable perhaps make them useful for practitioners.

00:38:41: Lastly on the monitoring side I have a new grant going with the International Biathlon Uning, where we look at breathing during biathlon especially in shooting.

00:38:50: On the intervention side i looked at couple things... The main one right now is this local motor respiratory coupling.

00:38:56: so deliberately trying to breathe in synchronization of steps.

00:39:02: And for this, we've developed an app that we call Run Rhythm.

00:39:05: We have a few different publications on it right now and were doing intervention study where actually give the app to people about six weeks or twelve runs.

00:39:13: they try learn coupling as well push them longer ratio.

00:39:18: not only are they coupling but trying do slower breathing over those six week.

00:39:23: look at before after there's no instruction breath however you want.

00:39:31: Did they learn the breathing and how do they use it?

00:39:34: So this is kind of touching on that habituation or optimization concept, I told you.

00:39:40: Does it work?

00:39:42: How does it work and why are using a technique we taught them.

00:39:46: so thats primary interest in mine.

00:39:50: some other small interventions going but thats main scientific interests to me

00:39:56: very interesting.

00:39:59: Thank you for your time, thank you for the insight in your work.

00:40:03: Thank you very

00:40:03: much!

00:40:04: My pleasure.

00:40:13: This was an interview with sports and breathing scientist Eric Harba recorded at a university and olympic training center In Salzburg.

00:40:23: Rief For SPIRA The Breathing Website.